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DNR drops non-resident two-buck proposal

February 10, 2010 at 04:44 PM

The Illinois Department of Natural Resources is withdrawing a proposal to allow non-resident archery deer hunters to purchase a second combination archery deer permit.

That proposal met with angry response from several resident hunting groups, since it would have allowed non-residents to shoot two bucks during bow season.

But DNR will move ahead with plans to allow non-resident youth hunters to take part in the October youth season. Writes John Buhnerkempe, chief of DNR’s wildlife division:

“Regarding amendments to 17 Ill. Adm. Rule 685, the Department believes the recruitment and retention of young hunters, regardless of residency, is of paramount importance in today’s world.  This is a national issue, not just a state or local issue.  Regardless of what other states are doing, we believe that youth season should be blind to residency and that youth hunting opportunities should be a priority.  Given the importance of this issue, we plan to proceed with allowing nonresident youth to participate the youth deer hunting season.”

Earlier this winter Buhnerkempe had discussed these changes for non-residents during the Pheasants Forever and Quail Forever state convention in Peoria.

“I think the whole issue of kids hunting is not are they residents or non-residents, it’s are they kids?” Buhnerkempe said. “There may be grandparents who want to invite their grandkids in to hunt. Is an outfitter going to make more money off of it? I doubt it.

“As far as the issue of non-residents hunting in Illinois, Pandora’s Box is already open.”

Buhnerkempe said the Illinois Natural History Survey is currently doing a mail survey of outfitters to get more information about the industry.

“I don’t think we fully understand the industry as well as we need to,” Buhnerkempe said. “



Your CommentsComments :: Terms :: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

well, HE’s RIGHT WITH THAT LAST STATEMENT! a little late though ain’t it!

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 05:25 PM

“we believe that youth season should be blind to residency…”  Now that’s an understatement! Why stop there? They’ve been blind to all resident needs! Heck with the Illinois tax payers who are struggling to find a place for their children to hunt, just keep selling more permits to the NR’s. And oh, I think they understand the outfitter industry just fine. No need for a survey. $$$$ to politician’s pockets. It all comes around, doesn’t it John?

Posted by Marc Anthony on 02/10 at 06:33 PM

“As far as the issue of non-residents hunting in Illinois, Pandora’s Box is already open.”  THANKS, former director manning.  Were it not for the rape of DNR perpetrated during the inept directorship of brunsvold/flood , manning would rate as the worst director in my memory, which goes back as far as Glenn Palmer (the late 1950’s).

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 07:38 PM

Just more money to line the velvet pockets of our worthless DNR executives.  The only reason NR’s come to Illinois is for the almighty headgear on the bucks, so opening the doors to children from out of state is just going to teach them the bigger the rack, the better the hunt.  What ever happened to taking the kids out to learn about the outdoors and enjoy harvesting any animal that presents itself.  All we are doing is teaching them that doe’s and little racks aren’t worth the effort.  It’s go big or go home. Really sad to see this is what hunting has come to.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 08:13 PM

I think the comment about Pandoras Box demonstrates who the DNR was listening to…... Now they are going to survey the outfitters????? Well DUHHHH I wonder what they are going to say.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 08:20 PM

If NR youths would like to be given the opportunity to hunt how about making the outfitters provide a place for them to shoot does.  If it is about introducing them to the sport than what better way to learn.  Make it a rule that outfitters must provide hunts for NR youth they are making enough money off of NR hunts.  Just a thought why should the kids of this state who have it tough enough like the rest of the adult hunters who do not have a place to hunt!!  Now they have to bump elbows with NR kids lining up at the counter to buy a permit for their dad or uncle most likely who is manning the trigger showing them how to hold out for the big one.  What a joke this state just moved into last place on hunting destinations.  It will be interesting to see the jump from last year in permit sales and the youth deer numbers!!!!

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 09:10 PM

By the way John send a copy of the survey to this site the real hunters of this state will answer and elaborate on any questions you have on the industry since none of the so called QUALIFIED BIOLOGIST or any of the other individuals of the DNR who think they know best want to know!!!

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 09:14 PM

If it is truly about the kids and they have a place to hunt - thats great! 
What kills me about these youth hunts, whether is deer, duck or upland - Why aren’t “most” of the
parents and grandparents taking these kids during the openning day regular hunts -thats were tradition is born.  I am so greatful my dad and his hunting partners gladly made room for me on openning
day.  I was too young to realize it, but they always made sure I had the best spot and blind.
There were no special youth hunts back then and eventho they are all gone now, I can still remember
all thos Ol Boys and the stories that were told and the excitement of the real openning day.
I probably learned more about the commarady of hunting more then i did about the actual hunt back then, again w/o realizing it until much later.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 10:32 PM

As a side note John B. I believe Pandora’s box
(jar) was closed leaving only hope inside.
The sooner you close it you it will help stop the spread of this NR disease and leave Illinois hunters a little hope!

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 10:45 PM

Finally, there is something that I can agree with John B. on.  He is dead on about the recruitment and retention of youth hunters.  They are the future of this sport, both non-residents and residents alike.  Like, John B., I believe that there are a lot of grandparents who would love to invite their out of State grandchildren to come visit Illinois to hunt the family farm. Now they can afford to do it. $400 is a pretty steep price to pay for a kid to be able to hunt on Grandpa’s farm.  As far as outfitters going to make more money off of it, I doubt it, too.  Most outfitters have a pretty good discount for youth hunters anyway.  Some even give a free youth hunt with their larger parties of hunters.

Could someone please explain to me why the dropping of the non-resident archery deer hunters to purchase a second combination archery deer permit helps Illinois resident hunters?  IDNR has a quota of 25,000 n/r archery permits.  They sell maybe 20,000 of them.  What makes the difference whether another n/r buys it or someone who already has bought one for $400.  Why should that anger resident hunters, who only pay $50 for two resident deer tags and can kill two bucks.  This sounds alot like discrimination to me.  Wouldn’t all that anger be better spent protesting the fact that the IDNR raised the quota to 25,000 from 12,500 in order to make more money from the sale of the permits.  Or that IDNR has done nothing to help gain access to more public lands for displaced Illinois hunters as a direct result of them selling those same archery permits.  There’s no telling what might upset some people.

Pandora’s Box has opened alright.  Pandora is a slut, and her initials are IDNR.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/10 at 11:31 PM

This is nothing more than “political posturing” by IDNR during the election year.  Murdy, take your blinders off and you’ll figure it out.  Quinn barely won his own party’s primary election.  How will he ever defeat a real opponent in the Fall election?  By doing and saying whatever he has to, in order to get elected.  Pardon me if I’m skeptical! If you hang around Illinois politics for very long, you get that way.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 08:29 AM

riverrat47 - What policies of Mannings did you think were so terrible?  Not trying to pick a fight - I just really want to know. I’m uneducated about the policies of IDNR but want to learn.  Anyone on this blog could chime in.  Thanks.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 08:42 AM

Buckbull, I could fill pages about what was wrong with the manning years.  However, I will just address the outfitting issue.  manning instituted the Access Illinois program, based in Pittsfield.  Many of his biologists opposed it, predicting that it would lead to leasing by out of staters and outfitters.  They were promoting a program similar to N. Dakota’s.  The biologists were ignored.
I’ll stop now and let my blood pressure settle.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 09:47 AM

Thanks riverrat.  I hunt the calhoun/pike county line just north of kampsville.  I’m well aware of the negative impact outfitters have had in the area.

A bit of good news is that many of the outfitters are packing up and heading out.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 09:53 AM

At least they cut back the two buck limit. (for now)  Maybe they are actually starting to listen to us..or election time is coming up and they just want to smooze us.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 09:53 AM

Not letting NR’s tag a second buck is not a move in the right direction…it’s not a move in the wrong direction.  Of course they should not be able to tag a second buck.  What kind of greedy pig wants to come to Illinois to kill their big buck and then want another one in the same week?  Everyone!  For our DNR to even consider this is ridiculous. Somehow we are now supposed to thank them for not doing the wrong thing?  Should we residents not have an advantage on tags in our own state?  These deer DO belong to us Illinois residents. Why not reduce the NR quota to 15,000 permits issued and allow the remaining to go to the NR Youth hunters if the DNR is truly concerned about kids hunting?  Keep the number the same, just issue more of that share to the kids.  In my family, my son (youth hunter) has hunted a couple youth seasons but told me not to waste my time buying him a youth permit this year because he doesn’t want an advantage.  He just wants to hunt.  He wants things fair-and-square with no advantage going to him.  Pretty cool I think.  He really gets what hunting is all about.  He never even got a deer this year but said this was his best hunting season ever because of some of the things he saw like me arrowing a doe that came between us and him seeing the whole thing go down and the deer dieing less than 10 yards from him.  It doesn’t matter to him who gets the deer.  He just likes hunting and helping whoever did get a deer field dress it and drag it out.  He’s not a special kid…well to me he is…he’s just a kid who loves to hunt like most kids who hit the woods.  I’ll bet most kids don’t want the advantage, though I am more than willing to afford them a Youth Season advantage if they want it.  Help the kids, yes…Help the adult NR’s, absolutely not.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 10:07 AM

Here is the better question.  How does everyone feel funding an organization that KNOWS they are working against the people that pay their checks?  They are perfectly aware that illinois hunters hate them and hate the job they are doing but it doesnt seem they care.

BigD, it would be wonderful to get the NR cap put around 8 k.  But ya have to do what ya have to do to keep that other 5 k out as well.  Now the NR youth have first crap at illinois monster bucks.  Hunt on their grandparents farm HA… For every kid hunting on their grandparents farm there will be 5 hunting on leased land or outfitters.  And to show how out of touch the DNR is… All the grandparents farms in west central IL are already leased up so good luck for those grandparents…

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 12:36 PM

I am a non resident IL hunter and landowner and have been for 15 years now.  I pay a lot of money annually the state of IL on TAXES, non-resident hunting licenses, gas, food, and so on.  This does not include my land payment I have been making for 10 years now.  I have planted hundreds of trees on my poperty, native grasses, and food plots and leave my property every year better than it was when I bought it.
I have a 6 year old daughter that I took her hunting with me about 4 days in 09 and she loved every minute of it.  I even took her with me on the opening Sat. and Sun of the 1st gun season since the weather was warm enough for her to be out. 
I had already looked into the possibility of taking her hunting in the future in the IL youth season but noticed non residents were excluded.  I was very disappointed with this and couldn’t believe she couldn’t hunt in the youth season on the land that I own. 
I am very happy to see that IL is going to open this up for Non-resident youth.  I really hope the tags aren’t $400 each as I would love to be able to afford to take her deer and turkey hunting in the youth season.
Appartently clintharvery doesn’t have children or has never taken his childen hunting or he wouldn’t be concerned about a youth killing a “Monster Buck” in an October hunt.  I commend any youth that harvests a deer.  Any deer is a trophy to them!

A non-resident and can buy a bow and gun tag.  What is the difference if they by 2 bow tags instead of 1 bow and 1 gun?  You are punishing the Bowhunter in this scenario, and IL is a Bowhunters state!  I can assure you I have ate more $400 bow tags than I have filled.  Most non-resident bowhunters will never kill 2 bucks. 

If the state wants bigger deer they should go to a 1 buck rule, an earn a buck program, or a point and spread system so everyone is not killing all of the 18 month old bucks.  50% of the buck harver in IL are 18 month old bucks and I can assure you the non-residents aren’t doing this.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 03:49 PM

The 2nd N/R archery E/S tag option wouldn’t have sold many anyway- WHY? Because once again our DNR made a great choice- Allow N/R’s to buy over the counter Antlerless tags instead of attaching 2 or 3 of them with an E/S paid permit-IF they really were about lowering their DVA’s to 207-

What do you get? A group of 4 N/R’s hunting with one E/S permit and 3 with Antlerless- Brilliant move, for a Dept. trying to make all they can from N/R money-Don’t believe me? Ask any CPO in west central IL. of what they see during their field Cks- I have, and this is what they tell me! It’s not brain surgery-

On Youth retention: I’m so gulable that when Director Miller formed the groups to look at hunter access/youth retention, I actually thought he meant IL. youth! DuHH!! I’m so stupid!

Correct me if I’m wrong: These N/R OTC youth tags for $10 are UNLIMITED—

Riverart47—BOY DO YOU AND ME KNOW WHERE THIS WHOLE MESS STARTED HUH! We actualy KNOW the guy whom opened that box! Ain’t that something!Aren’t we lucky!

No cap put in place on N/R’s when de-regulating the deer permits- Formed the biggest Oufitter booking agency the state would ever see-THE IDOC ITSELF!-Virtual unlimited bucks harvest-Attempt to block gun deer tags for outfitter clients-etc: etc: Bet all that would never happened to the Muskies! Oh what a trip it’s been, and continues to be!

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 04:24 PM

hunterjjj, so let me get this straight.  You think your intitled to the same benefits as us residents just because you bought land here?  Why didn’t you buy land in your own state?  Is it because its IL, home of big bucks, must by property to have all to myself? You and the hundreds of other NR’s who have taken our land are the reason why IL has become such a horrendous place to hunt.  Just because you spend a couple months a year here, you all think you should be entitled to everything we residents should be getting.  Try putting the shoe on the other foot.  How would you feel if your home state was the deer haven state and 1000’s of NR’s where buying and leasing all the land in the state just to chase the all-mighty headgear with no regard to the doe population or age structure of the deer herd.  Probably be as irrate as most of the residents here are becoming, huh?

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 06:12 PM

Hunterjjj don’t worry every local is running your place while you are not there so thanks for purchasing land!!!  I think it is great that you take your daughter hunting, but look at the other side of the coin and that being no regulations on the OTC permits being sold for the youth hunt.  Walmsley is right on when he states that NR are buying doe tags in their group with one buck tag purchased.  Most likely Tim there are 30,000 hunters filtering in hunting on 10,000 either sex tags!!  The same goes for this youth hunt what a great time to bring back the check stations!!  Wonder how many youth would slip up and rat out who really shot the deer…..HMMMMMMMMMM

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 08:28 PM

jjj - I think thats great (resident or N/R). I’ve been there - enjoy it as they grow up fast!
The N/R system should work for people like you -
a land owner not out to whore out the land.
I wish some of my resident neighbors treated thier property as it sounds like you do yours.
I beleive there is a non resident property only
permit available - w/ some restrictions (40 acre rule)

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 08:41 PM

Fultonctyhunter,  No I do not think I’m entitled to the same thing the the IL residents are.  I never said that but I do pay my dues.  You are correct, I did buy land there because the hunting was/is good.  You think your DNR is bad you should come to IN and hunt.  It has gotten better since they went to the 1 buck rule but that happened way after I bought my property in IL. I purchased land when I was 25 years old and financed it all and have sacrifed many of things to this day to have that property(my wife will confirm this, I hear about it all the time). I used to have great farms that I had permission to hunt and they were getting leased and then family memebers/friends wanted to hunt so I got pushed out just like you and everyone else.  I have been there and understand it all.  I could see the writing on the wall with all of the monster buck videos, magazine articles, and websites posting all of these picts of these IL bucks.  I love to bow hunt and I knew that if I wanted to have a good place to hunt in the future that I needed to do something about it. 
I can assure you my father and I have both spent and still spend a lot of money on tags every year that supports the IL DNR and local farming community.  Tags went from a $125 to now $400+ a year for gun and bow and from 10,000 to 25,000 permits which is extreme. 
We do our part and take many does every year and maybe 1 buck each a year if we are lucky enough to get a mature deer, otherwise we don’t take any bucks.  Then I watch my neighbors walk in woods for 20 minutes and come draging out a 4 PT on opening morning of gun.  Then a 6 pt later that day and so on.  Then I go the processor and there are tons of 18 month old bucks.  Then these guys complain the following year that there are no big bucks anymore.  Go figure.

We the hunters are the maker of our own destiny. 
I know many hunters/fisherman who are users and takers of our Natural Recourses.  These are the people causing most of the problems, not the DNR or guys like me who sacrifice and appreciate the hunting in IL.  I’m sure you know these guys.  The guys who do dumb things to get kicked off their hunting property and then complain about it.  They also don’t want to do anything to get new place to hunt, or won’t help that farmer put up Hay in the summer, nor will they do any extra work to be able to afford a lease.  They want to tag along with you and hunt your spot but won’t help make the property any better when you call ask for help.  They go back every day for a week and pull all of the Bluegills off their nests in the spring. Do you know him?  They are residents and non residents alike.

PS I personally think 25,000 NR bow tags is to many.  I also think being able to kill 2 bucks with a gun is a little extreme. I totally agree with letting the resident and non resident youth hunt.  They are not hurting anything and will remember those hunts with their dads and grandads forever!! I give back to the land do you?

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 08:46 PM

come on already the big picture is more revenue ,thats it…
already increasing the 2010 license/permit fees is nonsense.
next we will have to pay for harvest stamp once we harvest an animal..
come on people wake up!
kids shoot hunt for free non residents should take a hike .

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 10:11 PM

Murdy:  Sorry about the blinders comment> “As for Quinn, ?doing and saying whatever he has to, in order to get elected,? he?s the only candidate to my recollection to say that we need to raise taxes.” Let’s see…10% unemployment, State bankrupt by 20 billion dollars, every business teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, “climate change” snowing everyone in, IDNR killing all the deer in the State, N/R’s and Outfitter’s complaining about the 2 buck limit for n/r’s…......yeah, now would be the time to put everyone over the edge by raising taxes.

JJJ. To set the record straight, you do not pay “Illinois” any taxes unless you make an income here, since they do not collect real estate taxes.  Those go to your County and they divide them up to various Districts like Schools, Drainage, Levee, Fire Protection, etc. and funding the County Government.  Illinois collects income taxes and sales taxes.  Your hunting license is a form of privilege tax.

JJJ. Don’t let the “locals” get you down, you have every right as a landowner in Illinois to do whatever you want on your own property.  You may hunt and fish on your own property with no license of any kind.  If you want to go deer hunting simply apply for a non-resident, property only permit.  I think they cost about $75.00.  The Shawnee National Forest has over 270,000 acres of Federal Public Land that anyone may hunt….resident or non-resident alike.  Thank you for purchasing your land in Illinois.  Now if the “brown and downers” that post on this site would get there heads out of their rear ends and buy some of their own land, instead of running down everyone that has seen the light, maybe they would have their own place to hunt and wouldn’t have to poach on your land and mine.  Have a great hunt and by all means take your kids hunting in Illinois.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 11:24 PM

I strongly encourage all hunter to look at ALL the proposed add rule that our IDNR is wanting to implement.

You can see for yourself that our IDNR is NOT giving any resident youths, a cheaper permits or licences for the coming years, just the opposite.
All IL youth are included in the IDNR fee increase.
Our youth will pay $5 more for their hunting license, & $10 more for there firearm deer permits, $10 more for their muzzleloader permits & $2.50 for a antlerless deer gun permit.

The n/r youth are also going to pay more for their licence & deer permits too, just like the adults.
$7 more for hunting license, $10 more for antlerless gun &/or bow tags, $50 more for muzzleloader tags, $10 more for e/s archery tags & $25 more for firearm tags.

The point of this is, that the state does not give any kids ( resident or non ) a price break on any hunting license or permits cost, but now want to give n/r kids a price break & access into our youth deerhunting special season ??????

Why are they NOT doing this for the youth resident turkey season too ??

We have been asking the IDNR to stop this youth season ad rule proposal & bring us a real youth recruitment proposal that included both resident & n/r kids AND does not just focus on deerhunting, but other forms of hunting too.

Forget the token gesture of just getting n/r into a 2 day deer season.

Bring us something real !

We want the IDNR to bring us all something that will REALLY help get kids into hunting & fishing, help keep them interested in it & make it affordable for the kids/parents !!!

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/11 at 11:49 PM

Murdy:  Let me be perfectly clear on my assessment of (Lt.) Governor Quinn’s chances of becoming elected governor of the great State of Illinois in November, 2010. He has two chances: (1) Slim, and (2) None

Far be it from me to be “politically disingenuous,” or to accuse someone else with that. When the Governor shows me that he can prepare a balanced budget, cutting the waste out of it first, furloughing State Employees, if need be, cutting out the great Chicago Freeways to Nowhere construction fiasco, paying “ghost” State employees, cutting out all the welfare fraud around this State, and, in general, showing some fiscal responsibility, then he may get my vote.  But I sure wouldn’t hold my breath, if I were him.

Lynn W.:  You mean to tell us that the UBS, IBS, IFOR, K.C., and you were not part of the great consortium of angry resident hunting groups that lobbied against the IDNR’s proposal. Or did you only protest allowing non-residents to shoot two bucks during bow season.  This whole thing seems a little strange doesn’t it.  There is nothing now to stop a non-resident from buying both a n/r firearm permit, which is $100 cheaper than a n/r bow tag, as well as a n/r archery tag (across the counter) and kill two bucks a year in Illinois, legally.  So what is the big problem with letting them simply buy two archery tags.  They still can do the former.  Nothing has changed that, has it?  I don’t get it, are you just mad that n/r’s might kill more deer during archery season?  That they will displace more resident hunters?  They already have their hunt scheduled, either on their owned land, leased land, or with an outfitter, before they even apply for a permit, in most instances.  So, I just don’t get what the real problem is?  I believe that it has more to do with “hunter discrimination” and a lot less to do with protecting resident hunting rights.  The same number of deer would get killed, in either case, which should be the motivation behind managing the deer herd in Illinois, not some pre-conceived notion of “well, we own the deer herd” and “they” are outsiders and have no rights. Sorry, the Arizona lawsuit and the Courts have decided that you can’t discriminate against non-residents.  Hey, don’t forget, you may be the outsider some day when you want to go out West to hunt something besides white-tailed deer, or, for that matter, across the Rivers to hunt in Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri, or Iowa.  The way things are going in this State, you may have to, just to hunt anything at all.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 09:11 AM

a non-resident can kill one with a gun and one with a bow, but not two with a bow! makes no sense! the state would make more with the two bow tags and the hunter would be less likely to fill two bow tags!

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 09:26 AM

BigD… funny you said….“Hey, don’t forget, you may be the outsider some day when you want to go out West to hunt something besides white-tailed deer, or, for that matter, across the Rivers to hunt in Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri, or Iowa.  The way things are going in this State, you may have to, just to hunt anything at all.”
I am a long way from retiring, but I am actively looking for properties to purchase to hunt on until retirement and build on and live after.  As much as I love hunting in central IL, land prices are outrageous and accessability is difficult to find.  When I get older, I’m predicting I’ll want more temperate hunting climates, so that pushes me South.  I’d prefer to stay in IL, so Southern IL is my first location of choice, then Western Kentucky, then Southeastern Missouri or Southern Indiana.
My Dad is from West Virginia and moved to IL in 1968.  I have gone to WV to deer hunt every year since I’ve been born.  Some of the locals there treat me like everyone else and others treat me like crap just because I’m not from their state or am not a local.  I just hope that when the time comes, if I buy and build in another state, that the locals treat me fairly and don’t have the “Nonresidents are the enemy and you need to go back to your own state” mentality.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 09:30 AM

Heck.. I thought we lived in the USA (UNITED STATES of America).. not the DIVIDED STATES of America

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 09:32 AM

Banerbird:  Couldn’t agree with you more! The exact point I was trying to make.  We all are “outsiders” here, if you want to go back about 200 years.  We all should be working towards the same goals as hunters and sportsmen, and that should be to knock-down barriers to hunting, whether that be allowing more youths to become involved in hunting opportunities or treating everyone equally.  The first priority should be to have fun hunting with your family and friends.  Everything should be secondary to that, in the “hunting” experience.  IDNR should be doing a lot more towards making more public lands and private huntable lands accessible to resident hunters than they are doing now.  This idiocy of “mine” vs. “yours” has got to stop, or we are in danger of losing everything that we have now.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 09:58 AM

“This idiocy of “mine” vs. “yours” has got to stop, or we are in danger of losing everything that we have now.” Wow couldn’t agree with you more on this one BigD this kind of sums up why its so hard for people to find decent opportunities in this state and its only gotten worse since the popularity of deer hunting has increased with all the horn porn.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 11:09 AM

There is no hope for us. This is Illinois. We brought you George Ryan, Rod Blago and Barrack Hussein Obama. The mentality of a group of people who would elect those 3 is beyond reason. These corrupt politicians are the same people who run or ruin or sell our deer herd. There is no hope. The idiots outnumber the intelligent by a wide margin in this state ... and they all vote for their own kind.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 12:12 PM

Big D ... YES.., myself, IFOR, UBI, IBS, all stood opposed to both these current IDNR ad rule proposals, that would have removed restrictions, that have been set in place for years now, to limit number the amount of n/r deerhuntershere in IL.

I know you as an outfitter would have liked to have seen these restrictions removed but we have to have limits on deerhunting in IL. It is a high demand hunting season & we have very limited access issues in this state. ( as our IDNR is suppose to be addressing )
I wish we had room for unlimited n/r deerhunters but most of us know that we need to have limits & keep them in place !!
I wish n/r were limited to 1 buck period, but they have been able to get one with a bow & one with a gun for several years. At least they can not buy the either-sex gun tag OTC, & they have to wait till the mid of Nov to kill there second buck, IF they have already drawn a guntag.
This is kind of like how you can kill 2 turkeys in Missouri, BUT have to wait till the second week to kill your second bird.
So the current n/r buck limits are is still limiting when, how & if they can kill their second buck.
I know the commercial deerhunting industry would love to see unlimited n/r deerhunting in IL, but some of us will still fight them to keep our limits in place to try to save some of our hunting heritage for IL hunters too.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 01:06 PM

By the way Big D. 
IF the two buck n/r archery would have had no effect on kill numbers, access, displacing IL hunters, ect… you are claiming, then why in the world would outfitter, FB, whoever….be asking the IDNR to change these rules ??????
See somebody, in the business, knows it will have an effect on things, so that is why they are asking for this current restriction to be remove.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 01:14 PM

we didn’t ask non residents to come to IL to buy land . Then they complain about what they can shoot or what they have done to their property to deserve more tags.
IL residents read the rules and regs before we residents buy land if we can afford to.
Their is plenty of hunting in every state .whatever the outdoors brings.
A kid has just as much fun harvesting a squirrel . its the parents that push the big bucks or deer deer deer.
so with that in mind let us IL residents try to enjoy what land we have left or can afford because of the big outfitters buying it up or the out of state deep pockets folks spending top dollar per acre and forcing the rest of the counties p.p.acre up.
with the amount of money we residents spend on licenses and tags and gear and property , which is crazy we still have to worry about more fees ,fees, fees.
sorry if i upset anybody ,thats not my intent.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 01:15 PM

BLUFORD… I was told by several real estate agents that the price of land (specifically central and northern IL) are not driven up by outfitters or “out of state deep pocket folks”... They’re driven up by the deep pocket folks in Chicago.  2 different agents told me “If I want cheaper land, I need to get further away from Chicago”.
I have heard horror stories from outfitter guides about big wigs from Chicago (darn near killing themselves/others, shooting adjacent farmer’s livestock, not knowing what they’re going to be shooting at… they’re just there to hunt).  And as we all know… the state Capital is in Springfield, but IL is run by Chicago.
It’s a shame and pitiful that a lot of people have the non-residents should stay in their own state, and they’re the enemy and the cause of all our problems mentality.  Tell me this… what % of total tags sold per year are from non-residents (bow, gun, muzzleloader).  Believe me, I don’t necessarily disagree with needing limits.  I personally think there should be a limit on total kill period (1 or 2 bucks and 4 does for example) all seasons combined.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 03:47 PM

hunterjjj-I would love to have you as my neighbor- I’d replace quite a few of my resident neighbors with folks like you if I could- You get it- I’ve found that to be the norm with N/R landowners. They are good stewards of land and wildlife usually-NOT so the case with outfitting however-

I sometimes come across as totaly negative about N/R’s in IL.- That is not the case-and especially with N/R landowners-

And It’s like booze/food/sex-“right Tiger”!—everythings good in moderation!! i,e,-FAIR N/R permit caps-buck limits- And I see you understand that in reading your comments.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 05:35 PM

While we are in the mood to discuss rules changes, I propose a new buck rule for all NR and residents.  The purpose of the rule is to prevent bow hunters from racing to shoot two bucks before gun hunters get a chance.  So the rule is one buck per archery before gun season.  One buck for the first gun season.  After the first gun season, then you can take a second buck with whatever means you choose.

If I weren’t a bow hunter, I would be bummed by the six weeks bow season starts before gun season.  Since I do bow hunt, I don’t have a complaint.

Since a NR can take two bucks, one with a bow and one with a gun, this debate seems hollow in regards to number of deer killed.  But allowing two bow kills per NR increases the competition before gun season.  So resident bow hunters will have extra reason to hunt more and earlier.

Perhaps more resident bow hunters want to keep more opportunities for themselves before the gunners get in the field.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 05:45 PM

“Tell me this… what % of total tags sold per year are from non-residents (bow, gun, muzzleloader” Good question now here is one for you, how many acres are reserved per NR through outfitters? Would also be interesting to see what percentage of people using outfitters are fom Chicago. Now not all non residents are bad, at some point we are all going to be or have been in their shoes in anouther state.
Sadly enough its the people in our own state denying residents or youths opportunities, I wonder how many land owners/outfitters/ people with leases step up and offer any youths a hunt on their lands? I know some on here do, and I wish I was wrong but I think those people are the exception to the rule.
My prediction is even if the state would not allow NR we still wouldn’t see a dramatic increase in opportunities, a few would just soak up bigger leases or buy up more acres.
Banner I don’t doubt for one second there are a lot of people heading down from chicago and I’ve heard a lot of the same horror stories growing up. Think about the cost of living up there if they can afford that does anyone really think 5 grand for a deer hunt or 3 to 4 grand an acre is going to bother them.
The bottom line is while limits are ok and I’m sure are needed at some level, N/R’s are not the witches of the witch hunt we are seeing in this state nor would banning them be the magical silver bullet to hunter access. My thoughts are if they are spending 400 for a tag most would care just as much as us about the herd. I honestly don’t think much will change on this unless there is massive state involment(won’t happen) or people decide horns are no longer in fashion and the fad wears off.(probably won’t happen lol but more likley than state getting involved)

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 06:45 PM

Lynn:  Your “knowledge” of what I would have liked “as an outfitter” never ceases to amaze me! You are the past president of the IBS, an organization that claims to be for hunting, yet you say “but we have to have limits on deer hunting in IL.” What you are really saying is that we have to have limits on non-residents hunting deer in IL. The IBS website says that it is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to the education and representation of all Illinois bow hunters. Yet they “lobby,”(which is illegal for a not-for-profit organization to do) to support legislation and conservation policies that are sound and beneficial to both the natural resources of the State of Illinois and its bowhunters. Over several years the IBS has won numerous hard-fought battles to open up new and better opportunities for its bowhunters. Their “goal” is protecting and promoting bowhunting within Illinois for Illinois bowhunters. In summary, the IBS lobby’s for Illinois bowhunters!  My question is do you have to be a resident of Illinois to join the IBS?  Or do you let legal, ethical, and responsible non-resident bowhunters in as well?  And, one might ask the question, do you also let Black, Hispanic, and Native American bowhunters in as well.  Discrimination is discrimination, no matter how you try and disguise it.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 08:17 PM

The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. Nothing else is promised to us - not even quality deer hunting. There are some deer still left in this state and by the looks of it there will be a deer season in 2010.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 09:34 PM

All the comments are interesting.Some people get it, others don’t and never will.It all depends on where you’re at as a hunter.Are you a killer or a sportsman? Everyone on this thread all have different agendas including myself.That’s why hardly anyone can agree.
  To begin with , this is nothing more than another way to generate yet even more money.Now they want to drag the kids into it.I wish it really was for the kids.What started out as a doe only youth season has now turned into a nation wide deer bonanza that now allows bucks to be shot.Kinda resembles the first late season pistol season that has gotten so out of hand that you have to go through your tags to see if you have the right one or not, or even the right weapon for that matter.It’s rediculous. Where are they going to hunt?Doesn’t anyone listen to the hunters in this state?That’s seems to be the number one concern for the future of hunting in the state of Illinois.Hunter accessability.Outfitters will hardly benefit from this? How’s that???
  Has it dawned on the IDNR that maybe why everyone is so pissed off is because 95% of all the hunting in this state is privately owned property?If it wasn’t for those private landowners there would be no deer left.Now we get squeezed just a little harder.
  I’m not going to sit here and ramble and bore everyone to sleep here but there are a few things that really is hard for me to understand.How does all this happen? Are we actually paying someone good money for all this? Seriously ,is there someone accountable for this mess that has been created?Our fees are going up, there’s no check stations, heck we don’t even know how many deer we have.We never established a baseline or a goal to where it all should end.Deer Management??? At what level? When you do your banking does the teller count your money or just take your word for it.I think we all know the answer to that.That’s because they manage their money and are accountable at the end of the day.They have to or they’ll go out of business.Too bad we can’t hold our elected officials accountable.Bad performance in the real world will get you fired.Wonder how many deer really did get killed this year? We’ll never know for sure because no one really cares but I bet we can tell you exactly how many dollars we generated in tags,liscense,and fees.The deer , it doesn’t matter.We have the call in seems to work, well somewhat for the honest ones.
  Kill em all and when it’s all over, the ones that care will slowly put things back together again.I hope no one misunderstands the intent of this.This is not a bash on non-resident hunters or outfitters.If it were all properly managed and the resources placed at the right levels, we could actually all accomplish our goals as hunters and sportsmen.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/12 at 11:28 PM

Sorry BigD but we have fought & won, for limits on all IL deerhunters too. Remember the 2 buck limit statewide limit on ALL deerhunters ?????
IBS worked VERY hard to help get that passed.
Ask Mr Walmsley.
It is also why we wanted to see one of the restrictions that is left from that, left in place.
AND we did just that.
Now most IBS members, IL bowhunters & IL deerhunters, do feel that IL residents do deserve preferential treatment in some rules, regs, prices, limits, ect….
Heck even most n/r even feel that the state they are hunting in, should treat their own hunters this way too.
Big D, as a former resident of Arizona, you know all to well how hard it is for people the draw highly coveted elk tags. Most all states have set limits, quotas, percentage, ect… on n/r hunters, to deal with these high demand tags & to make sure their residents are not overwhelmed with n/r & displaced by them.
CORRRECT ??????  YES !
BTW…the topic here is the 2 buck limit & other ad rules, NOT IBS…so to stay on topic, IF you want to know more about IBS, send me a e-mail & I will do my best to answer your questions regarding that.
Stop by our booth at the classic & we can talk more about any of your concerns too.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/13 at 12:01 AM

back to the article, “the mail survey of outfitters"cracks me up,wake up, its a business, they’re going to answer those questions to make it sound like they’re on their last leg,if you want to know about the outfitters, send the questionaires to the hunters.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/13 at 12:33 AM

BigBuckDown: Excellent post. Some people get it others don’t. 94% of Illinois’ private landowners get it.

Lynn: Can’t make it this year to the Classic, but will send e-mail.

Bass:  What John B. has not said in post is that outfitters have filled out several of these “surveys” or questionaires in the past few years, but they have been so poorly worded that it is obvious that who ever put the survey together never understood the outfitting business.  Where is the report and data from those surveys? Is that part of the “hidden” files that IDNR maintains on its deer management program.  Too sensitive too classified as to be released to the public at large. Also, I would agree with your last statement:“if you want to know about the outfitters, send the questionaires to the hunters.”  However, if you really want to know the truth about outfitters, you better had send the questionaires to the hunters who have actually used an outfitter, both successful and unsuccessful clients of outfitters. You are more likely to get a true representation of the outfitter’s business practices from someone who actually used the services of one.  Outfitters did not write Rule 640. In the first place, the State did nothing to limit the number of outfitters allowed in the State. If they had, the IDNR could have eliminated many of the problems caused by the uncontrolled leasing and unregulated hunting practices of some outfitters. Other States have restrictions on their outfitters, rightfully so, to limit the number and to ensure the qualifications of those who would offer their services to the public, to protect the public.  In Illinois, under Rule 640, there are almost no restrictions placed on who can become an outfitter.  Anyone and everyone that wants to hang out a shingle and call themselves “Outfitter” can do so, as long as you pay your money for your license are over 21 years old, and have no game law violations in the past 5 years.  Why do we need to have non-resident outfitters?  Are there not enough resident Illinois outfitters to handle the load, that we need to open up the field to everyone?  I guess it’s alright to discriminate against non-resident hunters and limit them, but it’s perfectly o.k. to not discriminate against non-resident outfitters?  Seems like a double standard doesn’t it?  If you drive a car or fly a plane in this State you have to demonstrate competency in order to get a license.  There are no competency tests or questions for an outfitter in Illinois.  I guess the prevailing thought at IDNR is that “it’s so easy a caveman can do it.”  And, for that matter, why is there an exemption to Rule 640?  If I am a licensed outfitter, I need to pay for a license, file a management plan and comply with all of the other paperwork that the law requires.  However, across the fenceline, the “Exempt Landowner”, who provides virtually the same services as the licensed outfitter, is not required to do anything…..........totally unregulated.  So, before attacking all outfitters as the bogey men who ruined deer hunting in Illinois, maybe we should get a few facts out on the table for discussion purposes.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/13 at 06:01 AM

BigD, not to let this one get away… but you need to learn a little more about non-profits and lobbying if you’re going to start accusing anyone of doing anything illegal.
From the IRS website:
“In general, no organization may qualify for section 501(c)(3) status if a SUBSTANTIAL part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (commonly known as lobbying).  A 501(c)(3) organization MAY ENGAGE IN SOME LOBBYING, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status.”
Now, while I do take pride in keeping up on current rules and legislation that affects hunting (and trying to keep the general public informed as well)... we all know that IBS (as an organization) does a whole lot more than “lobbying”.
Interesting comments on ad rule 640.  If outfitters are so concerned about the current outfitter regulations (or lack thereof), why aren’t they trying to change them?  Why didn’t they help out with 640 when it was being developed?  If I remember, some did help out with it.  But why didn’t they fight ILFB when they were pushing for the exemptions?

Posted by KC-IBS on 02/13 at 08:14 AM

One more thing BigD… if it weren’t for IBS and the fact that we DO get involved in legislative issues… how many people would have known about EITHER of these 2 proposed ad rules?

Posted by KC-IBS on 02/13 at 08:21 AM

The whole two buck limit for non-residents was just a distraction so they could sneak the non-resident youth in on us using kids as a ploy so we’ll go along.  I’m sure he does want to get youth involved especially non-resident youth.  Get them hooked early, “future money” not future hunters.  I can’t believe he admitted not having a grasp on outfitters… too funny.

Posted by Metallicat85 on 02/13 at 11:11 AM

its shameful that some people are attacking a non resident landowner because he wants to hunt his own property. i bet the attackers dont own land of there own either but have no issue of his tax money paying for their kids schooling or police. hunterjjj congrats for you and keep up the good job, you will see on this site that if you dont agree with certain people then you will be attacked, i have sat back and seen it to many times and seen people chased off this board by the same people who are attacking you as a non resident landowner even so you probably pay more taxes to support the resources the people attacking you use.
keep strong and god bless to you that you want something you can share with your children.

Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 02/13 at 11:48 AM

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