Full text of deer ad rules

I can shoot holes in these “dot points” all day, but I’ll focus on the shed antler claims.  They state that there is no evidence to support that adult male bucks are killed during the LWS, but 3 sentences later they state the FACT that 20.6-23.6% of deer shot during LWS are BUCKS.  Do you know why the don’t have any evidence that ADULT BUCKS are shot???  I do.  NO CHECK STATIONS RECORDING DATA!!!!  I’ve done a little digging and have not found any information on this study allegedly published by the SIU CWRL.  Even if only 1.5% of bucks have shed their anlters by LWS we don’t know what age bucks are shedding.  So what if that 1.5% of bucks are 4 years or older?  That would mean we are currently culling 2000-2500 either yearling or fully mature bucks during the LWS according to the DNRs own FACTS.  Next year we will be culling 3 times that number!!!

When I was a student at SIU, I recall a bunch of work done at the CWRL that wasn’t published in easy-to-access journals, reports, etc. A lot of research is narrowly focused to meet the needs of sponsors - they may be in obscure reports (not easily accessed by the public), in a MS/PhD thesis/dissertation only available in the university library, or they may only be documented through personal correspondence with the project investigators. You’re right, snshunts - even if the percentage is 1.5% then that is still cause for concern. This LWS extension (9 days) would essentially put gun-pressure on the deer herd for a longer period of time thant the regular shotgun season (7 days), and at a critical time in the winter for most deer. We can recognize that there is a doe problem in many parts of the state, but the timing and length of this extension just doesn’t make sense.

To only think how many of these does have already been bread is another reason to drop the LWS.  We harvested 5 does several years ago each having been bread with 2 fawns each already.  After that and with the deer numbers declining the late winter season is a JOKE!  More revenue is the only way they can justify having it.  Guys deer numbers are down EHD and the political greed along with irresponsible hunters is the cause of this.  I will say it again I can only hope for a 9 day blizzard in January!!!

Quality Deer Herd in Illinois RIP.  Once again, when the herd lies in the hands of people like Shelton this is what I expect.  Even if he is a political pawn, speak up and voice your opinion if it differs from the heads above you.  Whats been done on his watch?  Loss of Deer and Turkey check stations, LWS, increase in outfitters tags, etc, etc, etc. Misguided anger, I don’t think so. Its time for someone with some testicles to step up to the plate and take charge of Illinois deer herd.  Mr Shelton, I hear there is an opening for a waterfowl biologist in Mexico and theres a few of us that will even pay for relocation expenses. Its time for all us deer hunters to make that march to that big glass building in Springfield to let our voices be heard. Anyone up for a rally?

Rally-away is what I say!

when is the rally date???lol we just need to stop hunting the late season and giving them the money they r after or if ur gonna hunt the late season b committed to only shoot a doe if its within 20 yards so u can actually see the red spots where antlers once were if there were any!!! cuz if u shoot at a “doe” from 100 yards theres no way of knowing until ur right on top of it!!!

lets put some dates together and see how many deer hunters we can get involved and lets roll onto DNR headquarters.

SNS… You are right.  i cant find good data on the times on any of my research sites and ive looked on several.  I did actually find a study that showed significant data that older bucks shed last.  Coming up with methodology on WILD whitetails for this seems nearly impossible.  I would personally like to see mr don higgins keep record of when his bucks shed and forward me the data and after 5 years i could publish it Or we could publish it. I would like to do that study… and then i would like to do one documenting side to side symetrical differences due to shedding abnormalities. 

Personally i think from experience working with them and finding numerous sheds from xmas to jan 15th thats its close to 10 to 15 percent shed in this time frame. 

Shelby… you are right there are alot of studies published in university presses. MOST of these are not studies that should influence real world practice since they nor their methodologies are peer reviewed. 

In a nutshell the IL deer herd has been managed for profit only the last 15 years due to the state wanting to rape every nickle they can from any area they can get it.  Last year ever taxidermist i know had a down year.  What boggles my mind is how many people think the problem is ehd.  The problem is that 60 to 80 percent of the hunters hunting today dont know when to quit shooting.

So if I read the above correctly HUNTERS are going to rally to STOP a hunting season.  I understand your concern and do not disagree with this argument that our deer are being miss managed.  However think about what you are proposing for a second.  Soon it won’t matter how long the season are because no one can find land to hunt and there is no access for IL residents.

I think mr don and clint should mange the deer herd by themselves!!!! The egos are there. BARF!!!!

I agree with the summary.  The vast vast majority of bucks still have their antlers on January 15th.  Even if a buck HAPPPENED to have dropped their antlers prior, the odds that it would be the deer being harvested is very low.

You may call me crazy but its the truth.  I would say 85% of bucks still have at least 1 set of antlers on Jan 15.

Bucks dropping antlers has two major factors.  How hard the rut was and how hard the winter is.  This year, bucks weren’t worn down much and the weather was above normal.  That is why we seen so many bucks drop late.  Past couple years have been the same.  But, we know this is Illinois and every winter isn’t going to be so mild.  Then next five years could be the worst weather ever.  We will see bucks dropping late December when this happens.  So if we let this 9 day LWS go in to effect, we will see a major rise in buck killings.

Mallardman, our main concern is not the LWS season, it happens to be how this states deer herd is being managed in general. Alot of us are tired of the mismanagement.  There is alot more to it than LWS.  Where will the powers stop?  Our check stations have been eliminated for deer and turkeys. So what data being collected is factual?  Look at how many time individuals on this site point out FACTS quoted by the IDNR that are incorrect. The task force that was put together to address issues concerning our deer herd was a farce. Smoke and mirrors is what is presented to us by the ones in which we trust are managing our natural resources correctly. Where do they stop? Will we have unlimited OTC non-resident tags next. I won’t even address the outfitters issues that face this state.  There are a hell of alot of us hunters that won’t put our trust in the hand that head the IDNR anymore.  Why Rally, so our voices are heard.

At least the 9-days is earlier and not extending past mid-January. 9 days seems like too much, but I’m no deer biologist. I’m glad to hear the youth tags may go over the counter. We need to get our youth involved and this helps some. If the LWS extension (9 days) is moved into early January I don’t see it as a big help to archery hunters. They’ll get what 3 more days to hunt than last year if I read it correctly.

The days ISNT the problem.  The problem is that this gives slayers more time to slay.  Most deer this time of year are shot by killers on deer drives.  I seen a group of about 30 of them out “filling their tags” in one group. And yes you can manage your land how you want and i do… and have all killers arrested as soon as they give me the legal requirements to do so.  Problem is there are becoming more fence sitters now than ever before because the ground “open” to all has nothing in it they want anymore so they have to mooch off someone working hard to have something..

I try to manage my ground as well, but if the other hunters around me aren’t being selective, then it makes it very hard for me to manage for quality.  I target mature bucks and adult does.  ILbonecollector, the arguement isn’t whether we need an anterless season.  I think we all agree that it is needed to some extent.  Some areas of the state need it badly, and other areas shouldn’t even have one.  The argument is WHEN it should be and for HOW LONG.  After a quick search, I have yet to find another state (with a similar climate) with an antlerless gun season as late as ours…

Andy, I believe you’re correct in saying that the pen deer don’t experience the same day-to-day stress as the wild deer do. It’s the stress (related from food, [or the lack of], the climate, the amount of daylight, etc.) that cause these bucks to lose their antlers. I’m not sure if anyone remembers, but we did have some bucks lose their antlers in December because of the winter snap we had momentarily.

This 9 day season has got to be stopped, at least in the counties that don’t need it. If the western side of the state needs these 9 days, then maybe it should be implemented but certainly not statewide. I also agree that our voices need to be heard and maybe the next meeting is where it should happen.

I do believe we have enough educated individuals and data, that would validate our presence. Whether or not they listen is another point but it puts a ton of pressure back on the very people making these ridicules regulations.

I hope everybody thinks about my post here long and hard.  The average IL Resident Deer hunter does not own land, he or she does not have that luxury.  What we are faced with hunting public ground only or paying thousands (no joke) to hunt on someone’s private property.  Do WE care about the 9 day LWS? Not really, we actually see it as another opportunity to harvest a deer in a season where we are lucky if we even harvest one!  So, why would hunters like myself go to Springfield and lobby against the 9 day LWS???  Will you the land owner go to Springfield and lobby for more access to private property, including yours??  I hear people on here saying it’s RIP for IL Deer.  Folks, it’s already RIP for people who don’t even have access to hunting land!
Then there’s someone on this board who comments on how efficient he is at having people arrested..I say to that man, have you ever said” Man , this is private property you are tresspassing, would you like to work out an agreement to legally hunt on my property?”  In summary, the non-land owner hunter is the majority in this state.  Get real if you think we’re gonna lobby against a 9 day LWS..

stage1, I did think about your post long and hard as you requested! Here’s our side of this issue:
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We understand how hard it is to obtain ground here in IL. and it is a real problem for everybody. The extra days may be helpful for some like you but think about this for a minute. One reason everybody is upset abut the 9 day season is for the very reason that it will allow the slaughter of deer by the very people who DO have access. When that happens, you’ll need another 9 days to be added on just so you’ll be able to shoot what’s left. Our biggest gripe here is nobody is really “managing” this herd. If the deer herd is “controlled” by the very revenue it generates, greed will wipe this sport out! It’s been on a decline for years so we have every reason to believe it will continue unless it is managed correctly. We are also trying to get Springfield to listen to our other ideas pertaining to outfitters, etc. The sad thing here is they’ll probably do what they want anyway but when it comes time to ask the outdoor writers to promote IL. (which they do often) the negative payback can happen and they certainly don’t want that.
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One thing the posters here ought to take into consideration is the fact that the very people who are being vocal here are the very ones who are trying to save hunting here in IL. If we sit back and watch it happen, we’ll have no one else to blame but ourselves. If we work hard to prevent the decline of the states deer herd and we still fail, well at least we tried.

The outfitters have created this huge mess of the doe population and now they want more days for overharvesting to clean up their mess!!!!  As for the rest of the state the heard has been diminishing over the past few years due to EHD and overharvesting.  The sad thing is that it takes mother nature to kill the deer rather than some kids (who need a longer season than 2 days) or a hunter who would like a chance to hunt.  I really disagree with the fact of letting guys go into property that is mismanaged due to buck hunting just to help them out by cleaning up the mess they created.  They need to be held accoutable for the land they control or turn it over to someone who will manage it better.  People forget that for years it was one deer or even one buck to ensure that the heard could grow.  I guess the dnr forgot about those pins they handed out for awhile that stated shot a doe so the heard can grow. HaHa!  Well now it is back to NEEDING THE HEARD TO GROW and what do they do give the MISMANAGERS or WEEKEND WARRIORS 9 more days to go fill their tags in the worst managing season to boot.  Wake up guys and realize that it won’t be long and we will all be taking up a new sport!!

My Bad you’re right.  Well they are going to have start issuing those new pins with the different logo!!

Andy… the data that i seen published in that study that said dominate bucks shed last was so highly significant that it would still be significant in the wild.  1/500 when 1/20 is the general cut off.  I must admit i have said in many places that mature bucks shed first and my own personal experience has led me to believe that mature bucks shed first.  I personally from my experience agree with everything you say about sheds though. 

Late winter season is wrong in so many ways… its not biologically sound… it does NOTHING for buck to doe ratio before the rut…. Button bucks and does look IDENTICAL.  and it is not OK to shoot a buck during LWS because its going against its management purpose.  Has nothing to do with them already being shed.

All it is about is money for the state! By reading all these comments I would say nobody buys more than 1 or 2 shotgun tags a year. When I started hunting 30+ yrs ago some years I didn’t even get a tag when they had their drawings, but it seamed like I would get tags at least every other year. But I would say it has been 20 years that I have not recieved a tag. Now go look at your county after the drawings and see how many doe only tags a person can get in the daily drawings, ungodly amounts for some counties. Protesting at the DNR office doesn’t help they just follow the statutes that are given to them. You have to call your state senator or rep. There needs to be a reduction in the amount of these doe only permits sold and a reduction of out of state permits issued. Another problem I think needs to also be addressed is during shotgun season hunters tracking or checking to see if they hit or missed their deer. I find dead deer after both seasons where someone shot but coundn’t find it. Animals wasted & permits left unfilled for another shot. In my area, they know they can always come to my door and I will help them track down their deer.

Stage1, I have suggested on this site several times that more land such as forest preserves, county ground, park district ground or whatever needs to be opened up for more hunting opportunities to the residents of this state.  Hell as far as I am concerned Illinois residents should have priority when it comes to that but it won’t happen. Take Jubilee park here in Central Illinois, has great potential but its open to everyone in the world to hunt which in turn screws everybody elses hunting up.  Then you take the Buckhorn unit in Brown County.  The area is broken down into several units and only a limited number of Illinois residents can hunt these units at a time.  Instead of a major cluster #$%^  at least you have limited access.  The way this state runs things I think all you would see is another cluster.  My complaint is how the deer herd is being mismanaged in this state and unfortunatly it isn’t a easy situation to resolve as some have posted.

Oh its not that hard to resolve with some sense in the DNR.  Reduce the herd where it needs reduced… Open up the largest campus in the world ” siue” to bowhunting for the students in sections.  With it being some kinda earn a buck program to reduce deer in an area with lots of major highways. And give the country kids in the school a way to get away from stress for awhile.  This type of outlook should be applied at lots of state ran areas. 

Make outfitters accountable for the does on their land.  Make them document kills.  If they dont document enough… they have to get the kills during late season or lose licensure the next year.  Open up chicago land forest preserves to hunting with a bow instead of paying dozens of game wardens to constantly patrol it to save the deer for the cars.  Bottom line is deer dont need government ground to ensure their survival and we pay our taxes to support this ground there is no reason we cant use it. 

We need an NR cap thats reasonable.  I think the NRs need this cap too.  Specially the ones who use outfitters…. too many fly by nighters that lease up tons of land… that isnt quality and rip off NRs
Put some areas of the state into antler programs aimed at age structure.  Many areas of the US are doing it with great results.  This would greatly help buck to doe ratios.  Something like a 12 inch spread… 4 points on 1 side… ANYTHING.  Instead of ” check please” its a damn joke!

clintharvey-
a button buck a a doe look identical?? You need to have your vision checked.  I’ve killed over 50 antlerless deer and I’ve NEVER shot a button buck in that group.

also, your arguement is incredibly flawed…“Late winter season is wrong in so many ways… its not biologically sound… it does NOTHING for buck to doe ratio before the rut….”

What it DOES do is take care of does that are pregnant and will have more deer for the next years rut. You guys all act like its the biggest damn crime ever and it will destroy the herd.

GIVE ME A BREAKE. STAGE01 has it right.  LAND ACCESS IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT, not a stupid 9 day january hunt in brutal temps where the average “slayers” as you call them wont be out hunting they will be drinkin a few beers and maybe go out on a drive or two if its not 10 degrees outside.

Illinois new button reads like this “pay us a buck before our deer herd sucks”.  Thats the mentality I see coming from our wonderful state lawmakers and DNR heads.  You want to see professional information from a DNR, look at the article posted on here in reference to Iowa. Our JTF is a JOKE…........

Lung my vision is fine but no one can tell for certain its not a button buck at 50 plus yards with a gun.  With a bow… its easy.  You just shoot at 15 yards and your fine.  And lung buster none of my LOGIC is flawed… Im currently grading papers for the LOGIC CLASS I TEACH.  its a waste of time explaining it to you since your clearly a killer that gets something from it and loves stating how many does ya kill.

Clint, it is easy to identify a button head at 50 yds, use your binoculars!!! If your not carrying them with you, don’t shot.  Just cause a deer is standing at 50 yds, doesn’t make it right to shot if you haven’t identified it.  Learn how to identify deer by their physical characteristics.  It’s easy to identify the differences if you know what to look for.  Spend some time learning before you go out, makes a huge difference.

Fulton… yes with bilocs it can be easy… How percent of the hunters care that much?

Good points by all. If every Illinois hunter was like most of us that frequent this website then it wouldn’t matter if the state opened the deer season 365 days a year** - I think we’ve all acquired some ability to discern a healthy deer herd from one that needs help (either through culling, reduced pressure, or some other means). If only we could be that fortunate to have “other” hunters that hunt >100 yds away from us, don’t do deer drives on opening day, and won’t shoot everything that moves. That is why I’m so concerned about this 9-day exension to the LWS - it may be biologically supported in some parts of the state, but certainly not state-wide. Some “hunters” out there may not be able to tell the difference. 

**By no means am I advocating a 365-day season - I don’t want our state to get any ideas (LOL)

Clint you change your mind more than Obama.
First you say a button buck and doe look identical and you cant tell them apart, then someone says to use binoculars and then you say you could tell the difference but how many others hunters can.

you call me a killer, but i’m actually the one who knows the sex of the deer i’m shooting at.  use binoculars or a scope and if they are within bow range than you oughta know if its a button or a doe. i can understand a rookie hunter having some problems but if you spend some time out there you will figure it out trust me.

If you see an antlerless deer by itself in LWS and you are not sure, pass on it and assume it is a button-head.  Wait to shoot until multiple deer come in at one time and shoot at the biggest one (after checking for flat spots) - odds are it is a doe.  We still have trail cams up and pulled cards just last week; we had plenty of pics with antlered deer dated last week in the pics (most were big bucks).  Once we set the rule on our farm to only shoot at biggest antlerless deer in a group during LWS, did we reduce the number of button heads killed.  And we have yet to have a dropped buck killed with this rule.  At this time of year, bucks (including button heads) are still loners so safe way to avoid killing bucks in LWS - surely not fool proof, but a good rule of thumb.

this late winter doe season isn’t for the hunters,if anyone of us wants to kill a doe,we’ve got 7 days to do it,you all know thats not a problem.and the opinions on when,how or why bucks shed their antlers doesn’t mean squat.the fact is alot of bucks have already shed when this late winter season is going on.the deer population reminds me of the economy a year ago,its alot more fragile than most of us would like to believe.one bright spot…if it does crash like the stock market the outfitters will be headed for bigger and better states.good riddance

lungbuster… Its not that you CANT tell if your careful.  Its that most hunters just hunt deer and arent going to make any extra effort to tell the difference.  Thats just how they are.  Where early in the year you have no excuses.  Its not a mind change.  Its that the excuses need to be taken care of for the slayers so its just known that they dont care about management and just want to kill.  The majority of the hunters in LWS use drives as their primary hunting method.  They cant tell what they are shooting at.  In sept you can tell a button buck from a doe at 100 yards…

Bass i would also agree with what you said… the late winter season isnt for hunters… Its for people who cant get enough killing.  It isnt that the deer population is “hurting” over all in my area.  Its that every year it becomes more and more scattered.  People practicing management have a good but slightly lower population where the large tracts of land where the farmers allow anyone to hunt are basically whipped out.  There was an area this year that i normally see 5 to 7 deer per hunt that i hunted multiple times and never seen over 6 and that was a single hunt on 25 acres that i owe.  Hunts on the surrounding ground where a complete waste of time.  This is land that has accounted for about 10 of my hunting groups 140s or better…

wow!the pin was light blue and said"i took a doe so the herd won’t grow”.I called the dnr and talked to shelton.i volunteered to have a check station at my taxidermy shop,willing to have someone there all hours of gun season and every evening of bow.totally free and take any info they wanted,the response i got was..but then any state worker would complain that should be a job they should have and get paid.and the other problem was..someone would still have to assemble all data and it would cost money and wouldn’t be available in time before any changes would need to be made.still pursuing this maybe i’ll get a check station for my county.my county is terribly low on the kill yet they say has more dva than pike county.

Rich… i think that post tells the whole story.  YOu have a total idiot in shelton in charge.  So stupid that an industry that makes the state MILLIONS in tags alone with almost no cost other than printing tags… and the man isnt able to Pay a few grand student to run that data.  You actually dont need a grad student because all the state uses is percentages anyway.  I would love to trace this back and see who gave the dnr instructions to minimize the cost and maximize the income to the state concerning the illinois deer herd because im certain its the ONLY management play they implement.  We wouldnt have the 2 buck limit if it wasnt used to attract nonresidents to our fine trophy hunting…Personally ive throught it would be a good idea to make a 2 buck limit and a resident buck tag a hundo but they would just steal that money too…

Wow Clint, you are clueless. How is is it in September its easy to tell the difference between a button head and a doe from a 100 yds out, but 3 months later its hard to tell the difference?  THEY LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME IN THAT TIME SPAN!!!!  Do you even know what a button head is???

Umm, a button buck weight maybe 90lbs and is half the size of an adult doe in September.  Some might even still have spots.  A button buck in January is in the 130-160lb range which is similar to a young adult doe. You think they are born 250lbs w/ a 150” rack???

Fulton im clueless?  You dont know that buttons grain 15 to 25 pounds in thoses 100 plus days. It might make since if you were smart enough to realize that they were TWICE as old in jan as they are in sept. As well as MOST would still show signs of spots in mid sept.  Are you retarded or something? This is the damnest thing ive ever seen.  A guy seriously doesnt know that fawns have spots and weigh 30 pounds in sept while in Jan they weigh 55 pounds and dont have spots.

Hey “ad” ... aka Jeff Pontnack, DNR fish biologist-

I just sent you an email with my phone number, give me a call. By the way, we are still waiting for you to give us just one single example of something positive that Shelton has done for our deer herd in almost 20 years.

Well clint, for one, fawns weigh more than 30 lbs in september.  90% of the fawns range from 80-90 lbs.  By Jan, they rang from 115-130 lbs.  Secondly, there are no hunting seasons in September, by the time October rolls around, most of the fawns have no spots.  I have only seen 1 in the 10 years I’ve been hunting.  So if you see a button head, from stand, at 100 yds in Ocotober and can tell its a button head, why can’t you in January?  There isn’t much different expect 25 lbs or so.  They are still half the size as an older deer.  So basically, your remarks have no merit as you can’t even give a resonable weight and pyshical characteristics descipition of a fawn once season rolls around.  Try again later when you can argue with some valid points.

fulton county-

I’m with you on the button head thing. a little button head looks almost identical from october to january. maybe a few pounds heavier, but there aint exactly an abundance of food in december and january. Actually, they put on most weight in the spring and summertime when theres actually CROPS standing.

you are right, and local DeerMaster Clint Harvey is wrong.

I have a hard time telling if a deer is a 10 pointer in November but I’m sure its a 10 point in september.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ni6Hbqm04vIC&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=fawn+weight+by+month+“whitetail”&source=bl&ots=7mrG_SKdMJ&sig=Hwl11u4kpM9vNBg5YkhPTgsSx0A&hl=en&ei=sxTUSaTlEYPFmQe7ioCGDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA144,M1

Might wanna read that page there… where it says the age whitetail buck fawn of 6 months of age weights 80 to 90 pounds…

in Charles J. Alsheimer book beyond the basics it says 50 to 60 pounds by the end of august. 

It also says they have spots until 6 months… ive seen them rarely with spots in march. 

These are live weights… the ones i gave early were field dressed.  But this still shows a 30 percent growth.  80 to 90 pounds is THE SAME size as a mature doe.  Most mature doe contests in my area are won by 110 pound does.  In my search i have seen where some 6 month old bucks grow up to 160 pounds… Guys this isnt hard… you just have to look up the information.

im alittle stunned that someone could think an animal born with a weight of 4 to 14 pounds can put on 75 pounds in 3 months.  I mean do you seriously believe that?

http://chat.augustachronicle.com/stories/2007/10/28/pav_149577.shtml

One of the best ways to avoid killing button bucks, which are male fawns that have not yet grown their first set of antlers, is to wait until you see a group of deer.

“If you have two or more animals in view, it’s easier to make a decision,” Adams said. “You can compare size and shoot the larger one.”

Later in the season, however, button bucks might be as large as a doe.

“That’s when judging by size alone becomes more difficult.”

I like that part of the article the best…. What do you think?

Oh you make me laugh clint. That whole article is about how much meat you get off a deer.  Learn to read.  We aren’t talking about meat here.  It is very, very easy to tell the difference between a muture deer and a fawn.  I know for a fact, no doe weighing 110 lbs is winning any contest in your area.  I’m guessing your a very young new hunter to come up with such ridicouls thoughts?  Ask any other person on here if they agree with your rambles.

ad… now it makes since about all of your post sticking up for shelton.  YOUR A FISH BIOLOGIST!!  Well I hope you are doing your job rather than sitting on your -ss collecting a paycheck like this puppet we have who is supposed to be managing are deer heard.  Maybe someone at the dnr has a conscious and will someday start taking notes from Iowa on how to run business.  Don thanks for the heads up and maybe if he is man enough to give you a buzz for some insight from someone who cares!!

Fulton i give up… i post several articles making my point about the size of deer and you dont even read them just make things up.  Im done arguing with someone whose clueless.  Just think your some expert and im new if that helps you deal with your ridiculous comments you make.  If starting on my second trophy room for whitetails makes me a beginner then i guess it does…

No clint, you didn’t post articles about the size of deer.  Your first “article” is all about how much meat you would get off a deer.  Your second article is from an outdoor writer who lives in Georgia, which as an well educated hunter knows, have smaller deer in comparison to us.  Southern deer are typically half the body weight than the northern deer.  Your the one that needs to do your research.  Your not going to win this argument, might as well give it up.  Oh, and I’m sure your working on a second room for trophies. Going to look funny with walls full of button heads.